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MarkH2919 wrote:

> no offense, p4277, but some of your arguments are beyond weak.

 

That's your opinion, but what's weak about saying that the fact that we have a 40 year old arena that needs a quarter of a billion dollars to bring it up to NHL standards? Personally, I don't think these new NHL palaces are the answer to all the problems. If they were, the Coyotes, Panthers and Hurricanes wouldn't be in trouble. But the league insists on state of the art buildings, and we don't have one.

 

We don't have an ownership group. at least not that anyone knows about. Haven't heard a peep about this since the governor mentioned it a long time ago. Do they (still) exist? We may never know, but saying that it's a weak argument is kind of weak in itself.

 

The conference balance issue is a real thing. You might not think it's serious, but the league does. It's one of the reasons that the NHL wants teams in Las Vegas and Seattle while being cool to the idea of a new team in Quebec. If new teams were placed in LV and Seattle, and everything else stayed the same, all would be equal. But moving a team from Arizona to Hartford or Quebec would make a bad situation worse in the league's eyes.

 

The state's economy speaks for itself. I don't believe it can support an NHL team, if you do, we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

What are your strong arguments in support of the Coyotes coming here, other than you know someone who says it will happen?

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In order.

 

1), the whole "Hartford is never mentioned" argument is weak. How many times was Raleigh mentioned as a landing spot for the Whalers in 1997? Columbus was mentioned. Houston was mentioned. He11, even Vegas might have been thrown out there. Not Raleigh.

 

2) The building IS going to get renovated, for the simple reason that it HAS TO BE RENOVATED for UConn. If the people of Connecticut want to see UConn sports, particularly basketball, and hope**lly soon, hockey, to be among the elite in the country, this MUST happen. Whether it's done in stages, or in one $h0t, it will be done.

 

3) If a team moves here why do we need our own ownership group? What's wrong with the owner of the team in say, Phoenix, or the Islanders, or even Carolina if PK sells?

 

4) Conference alignment is down the list of priorities for the league. Stabilizing the 30 franchises is the #1 priority, and right now the situation in Arizona is anything but stable. The situation in Carolina, and to a lesser extent, Brooklyn, is also bad, but not as bad as Arizona.

 

5) Stop with Seattle. There's no building, and the one they do have, unlike Hartord, is not suitable for the NHL, even $hort term.

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Now, arguments for the Coyotes moving here....

 

1) As has been said in about 50 of my more recent posts, the Coyotes have no home as of 6/30/17. That's a fact. Their relationship with Glendale is about the same as living with your ex. The Suns have repeatedly said they have zero interest in sharing an arena with the Coyotes, it was mentioned again today in one of the articles Jersey posted earlier.

 

2) A new arena in Phoenix, from everything that's been reported, seems to be dead before it even gets into real discussions. And, as has been said over and over, a new arena for the Coyotes, is...at the very, very least, 4-5 years away.

 

3) Andrew Barroway is the majority owner of the Coyotes, NOT Anthony Leblanc. Barroway is a Northeast guy, with offices in Stamford and Philadelphia. He was the one that was going to buy the Islanders 2 years ago before Wang backed out. There were rumblings a couple of years that they were trying to find a loophole for the Islanders to get out of moving to Brooklyn, they would have moved here instead. Didn't happen of course, but there you go.

 

4) Whoever does decide to move their team here gets the Whalers merchandise deal, which is still near the top of the league. And, if they choose to, they can invest in not just the arena, but the other stuff that will happen around the arena, which are revenue streams for the state (who still owns the building) and the team. Simply put, if done right, there is a lot of money to be made here, more than Glendale, or Brooklyn, or Raleigh.

 

5) You make it sound like Connecticut has the economy of a 3rd world country. Yes, the budget is out of whack, I can't dispute that, but there are enough people with disposable income to go to hockey games. I will do some more research, but I'm willing to guess roughly 500,000 people paid to get into hockey games in Connecticut over the last 7 months or so, from October to now, with more to come as the Sound Tigers are in the playoffs.

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Haha once he asked for facts I was ready for a big list from Mark. And he wrote TWO. BOOM. LOVE IT.

 

I feel like this could still go either way. I don't see the Coyotes fetting a Tax District, Phoenix isn't going to happen I don't think. The only weird thing is the Springfield purchase that's throwing me off. Mark is right they have nowhere to play after next year. Why are they already moving an AHL team to Arizona if they have no place to play there?

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You know what? I recall a rumor on some radio station where a guysaid the Islanders were moving to Hartford right around the time Barroway was trying to buy the team. The rumor of course was anout the Chase family but maybe it was really Barroway. I could see him moving a team.

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MarkH2919 wrote:

> In order.

>

> 1), the whole "Hartford is never mentioned" argument is weak.

> How many times was Raleigh mentioned as a landing spot for the Whalers in

> 1997? Columbus was mentioned. Houston was mentioned. He11, even Vegas

> might have been thrown out there. Not Raleigh.

 

We all know what happened with Raleigh. PK announced his decision to leave Hartford without a destination. Columbus had no arena and the league re**sed to let PK move to a temporary rink in an airplane hangar. Raleigh had plans for a new arena and Greensboro was big enough for an NHL team until the new building was ready. (As it turned out, the Greensboro years could have been played in a high school rink.) Raleigh happened because PK had no plan and Raleigh was his only option. Will Hartford be the Coyotes only option?

>

> 2) The building IS going to get renovated, for the simple reason that it

> HAS TO BE RENOVATED for UConn. If the people of Connecticut want to see

> UConn sports, particularly basketball, and hope**lly soon, hockey, to be

> among the elite in the country, this MUST happen. Whether it's done in

> stages, or in one $h0t, it will be done.

>

 

I would hope that the state would not consider paying $250 million for what turns out to be a college rink. That type of expenditure should not happen without a commitment from an NHL team. And the team should pony up some of the money. But remember that there are other markets that have new or newer buildings that are ready today.

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cont.

> 3) If a team moves here why do we need our own ownership group? What's

> wrong with the owner of the team in say, Phoenix, or the Islanders, or even

> Carolina if PK sells?

>

True, if an owner wants to move a team here, then this is not an issue, but I'll believe it when I see it. I mentioned it because the governor said there were interested groups, and nothing has materialized on that front.

 

> 4) Conference alignment is down the list of priorities for the league.

> Stabilizing the 30 franchises is the #1 priority, and right now the

> situation in Arizona is anything but stable. The situation in Carolina,

> and to a lesser extent, Brooklyn, is also bad, but not as bad as Arizona.

 

We'll see how important this is. Teams in the Eastern Conference don't want to move to the west, but they also don't want to face stiffer odds of making the playoffs each year. The players' *****ociation wants this issue settled as well. They could stabilize the situation in Arizona by moving the team to Las Vegas, and save the expansion team for Seattle when they get their arena situation settled. That would have no effect on the alignment issue. Likewise, Carolina moving to Hartford or Quebec would be better for the league than Arizona. As far as Brooklyn is concerned, the Isles are making guaranteed money there. Would they get that in Hartford? I don't see the Isles going anywhere soon.

>

> 5) Stop with Seattle. There's no building, and the one they do have,

> unlike Hartord, is not suitable for the NHL, even $hort term.

 

I realize that. But the league wants Seattle so bad they can taste it. Among other things, they want Seattle to help with the alignment issue. I only wish they showed half that much interest in Hartford.

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Teams in the Eastern Conference don't want to move

> to the west, but they also don't want to face stiffer odds of making the playoffs

> each year. The players' *****ociation wants this issue settled as well. They could

> stabilize the situation in Arizona by moving the team to Las Vegas, and save the

> expansion team for Seattle when they get their arena situation settled. That would

> have no effect on the alignment issue. Likewise, Carolina moving to Hartford or

> Quebec would be better for the league than Arizona. As far as Brooklyn is concerned,

> the Isles are making guaranteed money there. Would they get that in Hartford?

> >

> > 5) Stop with Seattle. There's no building, and the one they do have,

> > unlike Hartord, is not suitable for the NHL, even $hort term.

>

> I realize that. But the league wants Seattle so bad they can taste it. Among other

> things, they want Seattle to help with the alignment issue. I only wish they showed

> half that much interest in Hartford.

 

 

What if Arizona moves to Hartford and then Carolina (they're on life support) packs up and moves to a Seattle after a new Arena is announced (eventually it will happen I think a few years down the line)? Wouldn't that serve the same purpose, albeit a bit longer time line? Just sayin.

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MarkH2919 wrote:

> Now, arguments for the Coyotes moving here....

>

> 1) As has been said in about 50 of my more recent posts, the Coyotes have

> no home as of 6/30/17. That's a fact. Their relationship with Glendale is

> about the same as living with your ex. The Suns have repeatedly said they

> have zero interest in sharing an arena with the Coyotes, it was mentioned

> again today in one of the articles Jersey posted earlier.

>

That's an argument for the team leaving Arizona, not for them moving here.

 

> 2) A new arena in Phoenix, from everything that's been reported, seems to

> be dead before it even gets into real discussions. And, as has been said

> over and over, a new arena for the Coyotes, is...at the very, very least,

> 4-5 years away.

>

See Above

 

> 3) Andrew Barroway is the majority owner of the Coyotes, NOT Anthony

> Leblanc. Barroway is a Northeast guy, with offices in Stamford and

> Philadelphia. He was the one that was going to buy the Islanders 2 years

> ago before Wang backed out. There were rumblings a couple of years that

> they were trying to find a loophole for the Islanders to get out of moving

> to Brooklyn, they would have moved here instead. Didn't happen of course,

> but there you go.

>

Yeah, and it seems that every few months we here of something going on with some team and everyone gets excited and *****umes they will move here. After 19 years of that, I'm a bit skeptical. The fact that an owner has an office in Stamford doesn't mean much in terms of him moving the team to Hartford, IMO.

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cont.

> 4) Whoever does decide to move their team here gets the Whalers

> merchandise deal, which is still near the top of the league. And, if they

> choose to, they can invest in not just the arena, but the other stuff that

> will happen around the arena, which are revenue streams for the state (who

> still owns the building) and the team. Simply put, if done right, there is

> a lot of money to be made here, more than Glendale, or Brooklyn, or

> Raleigh.

>

Do we know that for sure? Will the NHL give up the rights to the Whalers name and logo to anyone who moves a team here? As for these other revenue streams, a lot depends on what they are, how much of an investment it would be, how much revenue the team could expect, etc. Pretty vague at this point to say that this is a strong reason to bring a team here. Hard to top the guaranteed money that the Isles are getting along with their big TV money.

 

> 5) You make it sound like Connecticut has the economy of a 3rd world

> country. Yes, the budget is out of whack, I can't dispute that, but there

> are enough people with disposable income to go to hockey games. I will do

> some more research, but I'm willing to guess roughly 500,000 people paid to

> get into hockey games in Connecticut over the last 7 months or so, from

> October to now, with more to come as the Sound Tigers are in the playoffs.

 

Those 500,000 people paid for minor league and college hockey tickets. I shouldn't have to point out that NHL tickets are way more expensive. I have season tickets for Quinnipiac, Row 1 right on the gl*****. What I pay for each ticket all year is probably about what I would pay for 1 game in the lower bowl for an NHL team.

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LOL AHL teams aren't a commitment. You think they would hesitate for a second to kill the Springfield market if they save money for one year before moving?

 

PlainvilleWhale wrote:

> I don't see how anyone here can spin the Coyotes buying/moving their AHL to

> Tuscan as anything but they're committed to the area. They're not coming to

> Hartford

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Because you're a QU fan. $250 million is a reasonable price for a modern arena that hosts three major programs that are nationally relevant and draw big numbers.

 

I think a great case can be made for Hartford's potential as an NHL market. As far as rumors, I don't believe anything until I see it. But I also don't discount it because I've heard from fairly reliable sources that serious p*****es have been made at Hartford. Either way, UConn is enough of an *****et and has the potential to generate the kind of revenue (in conjunction with entertainment dates and possibly the AHL) that justifies a modern arena. $250 million isn't cheap but it's a damn good deal for what we'd get by current standards. Doing nothing would lead to the worst case scenario is short order. Do it. Now.

 

> I would hope that the state would not consider paying $250 million for what turns out

> to be a college rink. That type of expenditure should not happen without a

> commitment from an NHL team. And the team should pony up some of the money. But

> remember that there are other markets that have new or newer buildings that are ready

> today.

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medium_ball_of_hate wrote:

> Because you're a QU fan. $250 million is a reasonable price for a modern arena that

> hosts three major programs that are nationally relevant and draw big numbers.

>

My being a QU fan isn't the issue. I'm also a Connecticut taxpayer. As such, i have a problem with spending a quarter of a billion dollars of public money on a facility for UConn after we already built athletic venues for them on campus.

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There isn't a bigger fan of UConn sports on this board than me but with the Big 12 likely not expanding and the Big 10 signing a new deal with FOX dishing out 50 mil per school (essentially pricing out UConn's worth) 250 mil for a niche sport in college hockey and mid major basketball could make that an extremely tough sell.

 

But the sources said that the bonds for the project were a done deal though, right?

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medium_ball_of_hate wrote:

> LOL AHL teams aren't a commitment. You think they would hesitate for a second to kill

> the Springfield market if they save money for one year before moving?

>

> PlainvilleWhale wrote:

> > I don't see how anyone here can spin the Coyotes buying/moving their AHL to

> > Tuscan as anything but they're committed to the area. They're not coming to

> > Hartford

 

So that means nothing and they're coming to Hartford?

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It means nothing and that's it. The fate of major league sports franchises doesn't hinge on the location of fly by night farm teams. If they stay, the AHL team stays in Tucson. If the last ditch effort to share an arena in Phoenix fails, the falcons move again next year. Not even a little relevant.

 

As far as the bond, there is no source. Read CRDA minutes. The money is sitting there bonded waiting to be appropriated. No one is willing to do so in the middle of a budget crisis, but it's there. Not conjecture, not what sources say, black and white.

 

> >

> > PlainvilleWhale wrote:

> > > I don't see how anyone here can spin the Coyotes buying/moving their AHL to

> > > Tuscan as anything but they're committed to the area. They're not coming to

> > > Hartford

>

> So that means nothing and they're coming to Hartford?

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I'm not done starry eyed optimist pitching a five year deadline based in sources. My only basis for real hope is the fact that the NHL is a very niche sport with a lot of problematic markets and very few solution markets. I really don't sweat the fact that Hartford isn't being mentioned in relocation rumor articles because they're also mentioning locations that are never happening like Portland and Hamilton. Bad company to be mentioned in and there's no basis other than speculation anyways. If a shovel went into the ground we'd be right in the conversation with QC overnight, but being talked about is irrelevant and it isn't helping them right now.

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I know there are always going to be skeptics and doubting Thomases out there (or in this case, doubting P4277's), and I'd love to be able to sit here and tell you all the things I know, but I simply can't do that. What I can tell you is that the Arizona situation is not expected to get any better anytime soon, and that it's very, very likely they will have to relocate, and that move will certainly happen by the summer of 2017, if not much sooner, like this spring. The league and team has lost too much money out there to continue.

 

As for the AHL move, I heard last night from a friend that is a WolfPack season ticket holder, that the NHL is making it a mandate for ALL the NHL teams to own their AHL clubs. So, as AHL teams become available for sale, the NHL has first opportunity to buy. That's what happened in Springfield. Pompea wanted out, and the Coyotes got the first chance, and took it, almost certainly at the league's urging.

 

Where can they go? Well, you're crazy if you really think that the league is going to let them move to Vegas or Quebec City, and lose that $500M that the owners don't have to share with the NHLPA. The usual candidates for relocation, the Portlands, the Houstons, the Kansas Citys, all have shown zilch in terms of interest. Seattle is out of play, at least for now, because of the fact they have no arena that the NHL deems good enough, even for $hort time use.

 

Hartford has an arena, that for a $hort term fix, can be used. Hartford has a plan for a major renovation, the CRDA has hired contractors and architects that were recommended to them by the NHL itself, it's the same people that did the renovations at MSG.

 

Conference alignment really isn't that big of a deal, and it's definitely not more of a priority than stabilizing the troubled franchises, of which Arizona is at the top of the list. Conference alignment has changed at least 3 times that I remember in the last 20 years.

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I can't believe this has to be stressed, but conference alignment will have no bearing on whether or not a team relocates to Hartford. It's an annoying itch that will eventually be delt with, but if a franchise can be stabilized with a promising economic forecast, the'll talk about the what type of flowers to plant around the building before alignment issues.

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