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WhalerChad

Islanders looking at new arena next to Belmont Park

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Bloomberg News reporting that the owners of NY Islanders and Time Leiweke's Oak View Group and Wilpon family's Sterling Development are proposing building a new arena for the Islanders next to Belmont Park racetrack in Elmont, NY. Bloomberg also says NY governor Andrew Cuomo has been a part of the talks. NY Rangers owner Dolan could be part of deal through his investment in Oak View Group.

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-02-24/ny-rangers-owner-dolan-said-to-back-new-home-for-islanders

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There are, as of right now, 4 arenas in the NYC Metro area that seats 13,000+. Uniondale, MSG, Barclays and Newark. That doesn't even include the closed Meadowlands. To build a 5th arena...wow. You guys think it's bad Hartford renovates their current facility, one that needs work very, very desparately...and NYC is talking about a 5th arena within about a 40 mile radius.

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MarkH2919 wrote:

> There are, as of right now, 4 arenas in the NYC Metro area that seats

> 13,000+. Uniondale, MSG, Barclays and Newark. That doesn't even include

> the closed Meadowlands. To build a 5th arena...wow. You guys think it's

> bad Hartford renovates their current facility, one that needs work very,

> very desparately...and NYC is talking about a 5th arena within about a 40

> mile radius.

 

U.S. census 2015 estimate says NYC Metro area has 20,182,305 people living in it. That is up from 19,567,410 at time of 2010 census. Hartford metro has 1,211,324 people living in it according to 2015 U.S. census estimate and that is down from 1,212,381 at time of 2010 census. I guess investors are figuring more people IN NYC METRO, more arenas.

And also the Bloomberg story makes it sound like the new arena at Belmont is going to BE privately financed by Islanders and Oak View and Sterling development. That is different from the State of Ct putting up all the money to renovate Xl Center. N*****au Veterans Memorial renovation has been privately financed. That is different from state of Ct putting up all the money for Xl Center reno. Madison Square Garden was privately built and privately renovated. Again that is different from state of Ct paying all the money to renovate Xl center. If there was private group that would pay for renovation of Xl center then I would be all for the whole $250 million renovation.

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OK, then why did the state of New Jersey decide to close the Meadowlands?

 

And how can you say the whole thing is going to be privately financed when the NY governor is talking about infrastructure?

 

The argument can pretty easily be made there are too many arenas in the NYC Metro area now (just look at the closed Meadowlands for proof) and now they want to add one? It doesn't make sense.

 

Last, as I said on other threads, to get back to the XL renovations, this is the price the state pays for doing what they ALWAYS do...kick the can down the road until they absolutely have to do something one way or the other. Again, forget the NHL for a moment...does the state need a sports/entertainment facility in downtown Hartford? If you (generally speaking, not you directly, Chad) don't think so, then fine, but don't b!tch and moan when UConn basketball ends up back to where it was 40 years ago. And don't b!tch and moan when you have UConn tickets and have to make that drive to Storrs and deal with the bumper-to-bumper traffic on 195 instead of driving into downtown Hartford.

 

We need a sports/entertainment facility in downtown Hartford...and we should make the building large enough so that if/when the NHL comes knocking (hint: could be sooner rather than later), we'll be ready.

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I'm not sure how the Meadowlands arena plays into this? It's like 37 years old and has been pretty much replaced by the prudential center. Regardless the fact that the Wilpon's are in on this says alot. For them to stay on board with the new Islanders owners even though it's apparently not going into Willetts point shows how serious they are. With all these names I'm sure financing the project will be easier and having Cuomo on board will help with any potential hurdles.

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"I'm not sure how the Meadowlands arena plays into this? It's like 37 years old and has been pretty much replaced by the prudential center."

 

Well the original plan for the Meadowlands arena after the Devils and Seton Hall moved to Newark and the Nets planned their move to Brooklyn was for the arena to stay open to do concerts, family shows, et al. There wasn't nearly enough of those to justify keeping the place open...so the state, after losing a ton of money, decided to close it last year or the year before. So it does play into it for the reason that there were 5 arenas in the NYC metro area...and one had to close because there weren't enough events to go around.

 

So if this arena gets done...OK, so you get the Islanders and their...44-45 games including preseason. What about the rest of the year? The arena will compete for concerts and the like with the other arenas...how many will they get?

 

We have a hard enough time having one major league sports facility (and I use that term loosely given it's current condition) in this state, yet NYC is planning on opening a 5th (with a 6th one closed). Only in CT. :roll:

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The proposed arena in Belmont has 2 vital ingredients the proposed XL renovation does not, financing and a major league tenant. If finding events was a tough as you think Dolan would not be on board. The Islanders finding a local solution does not necessarily torpedo Hartford's path to the NHL as moving a NY team to Hartford was never the most likely path.

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"If finding events was a tough as you think Dolan would not be on board."

 

So why is the Meadowlands arena closed?

 

"The Islanders finding a local solution does not necessarily torpedo Hartford's path to the NHL as moving a NY team to Hartford was never the most likely path."

 

Never said it did. Why must you put words in my mouth?

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MarkH2919 wrote:

> So why is the Meadowlands arena closed?

 

Because it us old , outdated and replaced by the arena in Newark.

 

> Never said it did. Why must you put words in my mouth?

 

I put no words in your mouth. I never said you said that. I was just making a statement on my own. It's not all about you Mark.

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MarkH2919 wrote:

> And how can you say the whole thing is going to be privately financed when

> the NY governor is talking about infrastructure?

 

I meant Bloomberg article makes it sound like build of new arena near Belmont will be privately financed. Article also says that Cuomo is talking about infrastructure. I thought that meant NY will help with infrastructure while Isles and Oak View and Sterling pay to build arena.

Again, depending upon how much money investor would expect Ct to put into infrastructure around renovated Xl or a brand new Hartford arena, I would be happy with deal where investor paid for entire Xl reno or all of construction cost of new arena and state of Ct only paid for infrastructure around arena. But Ct is going to be on hook for all $250 million of Xl center reno during a really tough economic and budget time for State. And that is without voters knowing what else a Nhl team is going to want from Ct in order to move into Xl. What kind of sweetheart rent deal? What kind of control of naming rights and concession $ and garage $ and luxury suite $? Lets not pretend $250 million reno isn't about Nhl cause it is. Xl center could bring in more concerts and keep Uconn happy and get a new Ahl affiliate in here with a lower cost reno like is being done on Long Island. The $250 million is all about making Xl center ready for Nhl team that might never come here and will probably want to pork Ct moneywise even if it does come here.

 

If renovating arena in Hartford is such a great business deal then why is no private business guy with big $$$ willing to pay whatever it takes to take beat up and under performing Xl center off of city of Hartford's and state of Ct's hands and then put another $250 million in to a reno and then make money hand over fist in such a great market? Instead it seems like investors are willing to spend big $ to help Islanders build a brand new arena in a market that already has 4 arenas, which you say makes no sense.

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"Instead it seems like investors are willing to spend big $ to help Islanders build a brand new arena in a market that already has 4 arenas, which you say makes no sense."

 

You tell me...How is an arena going to make money when it's likely to be dark 300 days a year?

 

So yes, it makes no sense when there are four other arenas within a what...20-30 mile radius?

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MarkH2919 wrote:

> You tell me...How is an arena going to make money when it's likely to be dark 300

> days a year?

>

> So yes, it makes no sense when there are four other arenas within a what...20-30

> mile radius?

 

The proposed Belmont arena will not be empty 300 times a year. The fact that Oak View and Dolan are involved ensures that. Oak View does bookings for a number of arenas across the country and sells them as a package to concert promoters. So instead of a show doing 3 nights at MSG they may do 2 at MSG and 1 at Belmont. This is Dolan's way to compete with Barclay's and NVMC which are aligned and likely to book in a similar fashon. A new Belmont arena would probably end up fighting with Barclay's as the #2 arena spot in NYC as it will not technically have the NYC address (it's right on the line) but will address the complaints many have about Barclay's in that it's easily accessible via car from LI and CT and will have a hockey friendly set up.

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You certainly seem to have all the answers. But hey, if you really think this building is going to have as many dates as MSG and Barclays, good luck. I'll believe it when I see it.

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It certainly seems that another arena in New York is overkill, but if anyplace could handle all these venues, it's NYC. Each of the five boroughs in NYC is far larger than Hartford, and adding in nearby locations like Newark and N*****au county means there are 5 or 6 times more people in this small area than in the entire state of Connecticut. And since this arena is apparently going to be privately financed, it's a whole different scenario than what we've got going on.

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Markie's point is that if the major renos don't get done uconn's basketball and I guess he also means hockey teams will move their games back to campus. Why would they do that markie? His other pt. is Greater NYC will have 5 arenas . He needs to ck the population and the # of teams both hockey and basketball in greater NYC. Get real. when he hears something that he doesn't like because it threatens HIS view of reality he sticks his fingers in his ears and makes the LALALALA noise Oh, I was amiss in one post on another thread. The Niney-Nine was in reference to the % he has be wrong. So Capt. markie who will win the Hockey east tournament? And the NCAA championship and the Stanley Cup? No, I said it won't be the HABS or Bruins over a month ago nor the Catamounts. So capt. sport's fan weigh in with the CAPS newest addition they seem unstoppable.

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MarkH2919 wrote:

> You certainly seem to have all the answers. But hey, if you really think

> this building is going to have as many dates as MSG and Barclays, good

> luck. I'll believe it when I see it.

 

If you took all the arena options the Islanders have and put it in a column and then put all their wants, needs and concerns in another the Belmont is probably going to be the 1st best option in most and at worst the 2nd best option in the others. From being able to keep the lucrative, local TV deal to maintaining the NYC address which boosts the franchises value, Belmont does it. They want to be the main tenant in their next building. The isles have built a tradition of loading the schedule with Sa****ay night games and sprinkling in some Thursday and Tuesday night games. Barclay's held most Sa****ay nights for concerts and stuck them with a bunch of 3 pm games on Sundays during the NFL season. Being in a town that boarders Queens they should maintain most new , NYC based season ticket holders and gain back most of the N*****au County residents they lost. While it may appear strange to have Dolan and the Islanders joining forces and another arena may be overkill it is not to far from what we will soon have in CT when the Mohicans and Foxwoods jointly open up a casino in South Windsor as an answer to the MGM in Springfield. Competition apparently leads to strange bedfellows. I think this area needs another casino about as much as NY needs another arena but here we are. If all else fails Belmont is a little over an hour and a half from New Haven on a Sa****ay night and I can deal with that ride in the absence of NHL hockey in CT.

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"While it may appear strange to have Dolan and the Islanders joining forces and another arena may be overkill it is not to far from what we will soon have in CT when the Mohicans and Foxwoods jointly open up a casino in South Windsor as an answer to the MGM in Springfield. Competition apparently leads to strange bedfellows. I think this area needs another casino about as much as NY needs another arena but here we are. If all else fails Belmont is a little over an hour and a half from New Haven on a Sa****ay night and I can deal with that ride in the absence of NHL hockey in CT."

 

Casino will be in East Windsor. While I agree with you that we do not need another casino... the casino in East Windsor will be a casino, period. No hotel, no nightclubs, or any of the other stuff that Foxwoods and Mohegan have.

 

Again, if they want to build a new arena for the Islanders, in a metro area with too many arenas as it is...more power to them. But they're absolutely crazy if they think they're going to end up with as many dates filled as MSG or Barclays.

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MarkH2919 wrote:

> Casino will be in East Windsor. While I agree with you that we do not need

> another casino... the casino in East Windsor will be a casino, period. No

> hotel, no nightclubs, or any of the other stuff that Foxwoods and Mohegan

> have.

 

Even better. No night clubs or hotels. Just a casino. Hope it works out for them but I don't see how that will succeed where all you can do is gamble but what do I know.

 

> Again, if they want to build a new arena for the Islanders, in a metro area

> with too many arenas as it is...more power to them. But they're absolutely

> crazy if they think they're going to end up with as many dates filled as

> MSG or Barclays.

 

You keep saying there are "too many arenas as it is" in the NY metro. How do you figure? I really think you're underestimating how many people live there. The Belmont arena will become the #2 in NY IMO. The ones who were crazy were the people who designed a building that can't keep ice frozen, a rink centered, have a complete view of the ice from every seat and no parking garage. After all that they'd expect 15000 people a night to travel through traffic on a weeknight from Long Island. Or the people would dumped a couple hundred million into the N*****au Coliseum with no major league tenant and expect the NBA D-league squad of a unpopular franchise to carry the building. That's crazy.

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"You keep saying there are "too many arenas as it is" in the NY metro. How do you figure?"

 

I figure because there were 5 not too long ago. The five were Newark, N*****au, Barclays, MSG, Meadowlands, and one was forced to close because without a major sports tenant, there weren't enough concerts and family shows and the like to justify keeping the building open. At the moment, there are 3. MSG, Barclays and Newark. N*****au will open in April.

 

If N*****au wasn't going to reopen in a month, that would be different. If the arena at Belmont Park happens, there will be two facilities a few miles apart in NYC, and two facilities a few miles apart on Long Island. AND the building in Newark. Yes, I realize there are 20 million people in the NYC metro area. There's also a zillion things to do in NYC other than go to arenas.

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Hockey and basketball teams have traditionally shared arenas, but that is starting to change. I'm old enough to remember when baseball and football teams shared stadiums everywhere. Now I believe it only happens in Oakland, and if the Raiders are moving to Vegas, that will be the end of that.

 

One of the reasons the Coyotes moved to Glendale is so they wouldn't have to share the arena in Phoenix with the Suns. Yes, the arena was built for basketball, and sight lines were bad for hockey, but there's more to it than that. One proposal in Phoenix for the Coyotes was a new downtown arena to be shared by both teams, but neither team is interested. The teams need all the revenues from the arena and don't want to, or can't afford to, share the revenues. Minnesota got a hockey team back after building a dedicated arena for the team, even though a new arena had been built for the NBA team.

 

In today's environment, arena revenues are everything. Barclay's has been paying the Islanders a healthy sum to play there, but the arena is losing a bundle on the Isles games. So the Islanders will need their own arena, and the population of the area can certainly support it.

 

Going forward, I believe the trend will be toward each team having it's own arena.

Edited by Guest

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"Hockey and basketball teams have traditionally shared arenas, but that is starting to change."

 

Not sure about that.

 

Right now, you have 15 cities/metro area that have both NHL and NBA teams.

 

Boston, Miami, Detroit, Toronto, Brooklyn, NYC, Philly, Washington DC, Chicago, Denver, Dallas, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Phoenix, LA, San Francisco

 

Of those 15, 11 share buildings. Boston, Detroit (as of October), Toronto, Brooklyn, NYC, Philly, Washington, Chicago, Denver, Dallas, Los Angeles.

 

The other 4 (Miami, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Phoenix, SF) do not. There are issues in Miami and Phoenix about buildings as we know...one was taken care, the other...not so much. Minneapolis and SF are pretty content with two teams in different cities in different buildings.

 

There are 5 teams that share their buildings with minor league hockey teams. Cleveland, Orlando and San Antonio from the NBA, and San Jose and Winnipeg of the NHL share their building with their AHL affiliates.

 

So to sum up, I'm not sure how it's going to change all that much. If anything the number of shared buildings would likely increase, not decrease, simply because these cities aren't going to pay to have another big arena sitting empty more than 2/3 of the year.

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Look the Islanders and Coyotes have one crucially aw**l thing in common. They have both been in multiple arenas in "their" market and they just don't work.

 

At some point the NHL just has to give up the ghost on these two struggling lost franchises.

 

It's going to take at least 2-3 seasons to build a new arena. The Islanders have no where to play after next season and neither do the Coyotes. Both- again!

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