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tiscipa165

Howard's XL Center

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WhaleTime & Whaler 11

 

1997-98 - 7017

1998-99 - 7221

1999-00 - 6273

2000-01 - 7099

2001-02 - 6714

2002-03 - 5845

2003-04 - 5514

2004-05 - 5142

2005-06 - 5045

2006-07 - 4563

2007-08 - 4405

2008-09 - 4190

2009-10 - 4188

 

Average Attendance - 6017

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The WolfPack resistance emails are silly honestly. We all respect the history of the franchise, Pack and Whale. If this doesn't work out though, the Pack won't be back you have to realize that. It will be an empty stadium.

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I would just like to point out to the 2 or 3 people who insist I'm WolfPackFan1998, that I couldn't make those delusional posts up if I tried. The resistance? Are you serious, bro? I have never, and will never throw out words like "boycott the Whale". I think far too many people use the word boycott that its lost its potency, in my opinion.

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Whalevolution wrote : And dont be fooled by people that say that entertainment value does not come back to the city. When the Whalers left the estimated loss of revenue to the downtown area was estimated to be 75 million dollars.

 

The question in all of this is going to prove to be, how much potential economic impact of a renovated XL Center on downtown Hartford justifies a state contribution to the financing of the renovation of the XL Center?

 

The vast majority of money that would be spent in and around a renovated XL Center would be spent by Connecticut residents. We can talk all we want about visiting Boston Bruin, New York Ranger and Montreal Canadien fans... we can look forward to the surge of visitors attending NCAA Tourney games... but on a regular basis, the patrons of a revitalized downtown Hartford will be Connecticut residents. The revenue these Connecticut residents will spend will represent finite discretionary spending. That is, money spent in downtown Hartford by Connecticut residents can't be spent anywhere else by them once it is gone. So, for example, if a family of four spends $400.00 attending a Whalers game, paying for parking, grabbing dinner beforehand, and picking up a few beverages or souvenirs inside the XL Center, that $400.00 isn't getting spent -in **ll, or in part - at a restaurant in West Hartford and/or a minor-league baseball game in Norwich and/or a bowling alley in Manchester and/or an aquarium in Mystic, etc.

 

So, while the XL Center - and businesses surrounding it - benefit from that $400.00 being spent in downtown Hartford, businesses elsewhere in the City of Hartford and State of Connecticut lose out on the potential of that $400.00 - or, at least a portion of it - being spent with them. In other words, new revenue isn't being created. Rather, existing revenue is being redirected.

Edited by Guest

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(cont.)

 

This being the case, at the end of the day, the notion that the State of Connecticut is going to directly benefit from increased economic activity generated by a renovated XL Center is questionable... at BEST. Increased tax revenue for the state? No, not really. Because, while the revenue on which businesses around the renovated XL Center will have to pay taxes to the state is likely to increase, given that discretionary spending is finite, taxable revenue at other businesses in Connecticut will decrease. The state will receive more tax revenue from businesses around a renovated XL Center, but less from other places. In terms of overall financial impact to the state, it will be a wash.

 

On top of that, businesses located in other regions of the State of Connecticut will question why tax dollars collected statewide are going to benefit the bottom-line of businesses located in the immediate vicinity of the renovated XL Center?

 

Bottom line? Selling state investment towards this renovation's price-tag is going to prove difficult... particularly if the selling-point is positioned as economic development and/or impact. Maybe - MAYBE - you can pitch it as a quality-of-life investment, but economic development/impact? That's going to be tough.

 

I'm very interested in seeing how - or, if - Mr. Baldwin succeeds at getting significant public dollars committed to this project.

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I think your article applies to people that are on a tight budget. Sure, many people are and I certainly understand that. The idea that to a whaler game would force people to cut back on other spending they would have done in the state isn't really realistic. There are plenty of people in this state that are financially secure enough to spend their money on multiple forms of entertainment.

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Guys, why do you bother responding to WolfPackfan1998? He has never proven one of his statements to be correct, and all everybody does after he makes another of his completely clueless posts is correct him. He's completely delusional about the huge crowds the WolfPack supposedly drew (they have never averaged higher than 7,221/game), and he is completely delusional about the "thousands of WolfPack fans that are boycotting the Whale"

 

He posts to stir the pot, nothing more. Ignore him, and he might go away.

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BJ "if a family of four spends $400.00 attending a Whalers game, paying for parking, grabbing dinner beforehand, and picking up a few beverages or souvenirs inside the XL Center, that $400.00 isn't getting spent -in **ll, or in part - at a restaurant in West Hartford and/or a minor-league baseball game in Norwich and/or a bowling alley in Manchester and/or an aquarium in Mystic, etc"

 

I think your simply stating that this plan would ends up robbing Peter to pay Paul? Sure thats true from your example but I would rather Hartford be saved then bowling alleys and ML teams in Dodd Stadium. When the Whalers left, that 75 million left the city and went to bowling alleys and restaurants out of the city, but we are no better off from it. Under your example then nothing should be improved upon or constructed because it may take money from other entertainment options. Thats just not the way the world works, although I agree with your point, there is only so much money to go around.

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bjdellarte. Whose to say that family doesn't drive to Boston or New York to see a game and spend that money? These type of scenarios only apply if people are unwilling or unable to leave state borders. So that may be the case in a state like Texas, Montana, etc (big states) but here its far too easy for a family to take a short car ride to New York or M*****achusetts and spend money when they don't like their options here in Connecticut.

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UCHuskies wrote :

> bjdellarte. Whose to say that family doesn't drive to Boston or New York to

> see a game and spend that money? These type of scenarios only apply if

> people are unwilling or unable to leave state borders. So that may be the

> case in a state like Texas, Montana, etc (big states) but here its far too

> easy for a family to take a **** car ride to New York or M*****achusetts and

> spend money when they don't like their options here in Connecticut.

 

Agre 100%. And those that trave a couple hrs to NYC or Boston can do the same thing in Hartford for half the cost. And why do we *****ume that people cant afford to do what they do now and add the Whalers / downtown? sure many people will choose one over the other but not all people.

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Whalevolution wrote : I think your simply stating that this plan would ends up robbing Peter to pay Paul?

 

That's true.

 

Whalevolution wrote : I would rather Hartford be saved then bowling alleys and ML teams in Dodd Stadium.

 

But such an attitude likely won't be true for residents throughout Connecticut. There are plenty of people in the state who won't want to see their tax dollars spent on renovation of any sports facility, period. There are plenty of people who live in regions of the state other than Greater Hartford who won't want to see their tax dollars spent on renovating a facility that will largely benefit Hartford's specific economy.

 

Whalevolution wrote : When the Whalers left, that 75 million left the city and went to bowling alleys and restaurants out of the city, but we are no better off from it.

 

Yes, and I'm sure the owners of the businesses in other municipalities in Connecticut that captured a portion of that $75-million were thrilled to see their endeavors benefit... and didn't particularly care that Hartford's economy suffered.

 

Whalevolution wrote : Under your example then nothing should be improved upon or constructed because it may take money from other entertainment options.

 

That's not my argument at all. I was simply pointing out that the notion that construction/renovation of sports facilities results in the generation of significant NEW revenue is largely a fallacy. Most leading economists concede this point. NEW revenue isn't created. Rather, existing disposable income is redirected. That being the case, it becomes a problem convincing businesses and municipalities that stand to lose redirected disposable income to support public-financing for a newly constructed/renovated facility and its host community that stand to gain the redirected revenue in question.

 

In other words, "Peter" questions why state government should be committing tax dollars collected statewide to the improvement of "Paul's" business?

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UCHuskies wrote : bjdellarte. Whose to say that family doesn't drive to Boston or New York to see a game and spend that money? These type of scenarios only apply if people are unwilling or unable to leave state borders. So that may be the case in a state like Texas, Montana, etc (big states) but here its far too easy for a family to take a **** car ride to New York or M*****achusetts and spend money when they don't like their options here in Connecticut.

 

Yes, but you're *****uming that families in Connecticut will have to drive to Boston or New York to spend that money. Certainly, those who are looking to get a fix of NHL hockey will embrace those options. However, those folks who are simply looking to take-in a sporting event could attend a minor-league hockey game in Bridgeport or Danbury. They could attend a college hockey game. Sports fans in general could opt to attend a UConn basketball game, or save their money with an eye towards buying tickets one of the state's minor-league baseball teams. Or, they may opt to spend the dollars on an entirely different variety of entertainment.

 

The point being, not every dollar that isn't spent on a night of NHL Whalers or AHL Whale hockey at a renovated XL Center is going to leave the State of Connecticut. In fact, most will simply be redirected to purchases at businesses elsewhere in the State of Connecticut.

 

Bottom line? There are reasons to promote the renovation of the XL Center. However, stumping for state tax dollars to be committed to said project is a tougher sell, particularly when promises of new revenues are part of the pitch.

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BJ, there are always traveling fans of the opponent...there are media members that cover the other teams...there are the PLAYERS of the other teams (who almost always get here the night before and will need something to entertain themselves)

 

There will be additional revenue coming into the state. Now, is it as much as he is talking about? Probably not. But there will certainly be more generated from the NHL than from 38 AHL games drawing 5,000-6,000/game.

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MarkH2919 wrote : BJ, there are always traveling fans of the opponent...there are media members that cover the other teams...there are the PLAYERS of the other teams (who almost always get here the night before and will need something to entertain themselves)

 

There will be additional revenue coming into the state. Now, is it as much as he is talking about? Probably not.

 

So, if said "additional revenue" isn't as much as has been talked about, don't you think opponents of this type of public subsidy of a private sports enterprise are going to latch onto that? Look... the fact remains that out-of-state revenues - via "traveling fans", out-of-market "media members", and/or "PLAYERS of the other teams" are not going to represent a significant source of found revenue. Certainly not to the tune that proponents of this plan allude to when discussing an expected boost to the local economy.

 

MarkH2919 wrote : But there will certainly be more generated from the NHL than from 38 AHL games drawing 5,000-6,000/game.

 

However, Baldwin has acknowledged that there is no guarantee that the NHL is coming back to Hartford, even with the renovation. So, it isn't "certain" that the increase in revenue you cite is guaranteed to occur.

 

Look, all I'm saying is that numerous studies conducted by independent economists have shown that public subsidization of the construction and/or renovation of sports facilities does not lead to the increase in revenue-generation that proponents of such public subsidization claim it will. That's going to make it difficult to convince public officials to pony-up a significant portion of this renovation price-tag.

 

As I've said, I'm most interested in seeing just how Baldwin goes about trying to convince government leaders - and taxpayers from areas of Connecticut outside of Greater Hartford - to rally behind this plan. He has his work cut-out for him.

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"However, Baldwin has acknowledged that there is no guarantee that the NHL is coming back to Hartford, even with the renovation. So, it isn't "certain" that the increase in revenue you cite is guaranteed to occur."

 

It may not come from hockey...but it may come from more concerts, or other events in the building. How many concerts are in the building now in a given year? 5? 10? With these upgrades, that number could go up by a lot, we don't know that yet.

 

I do agree that it's going to take a lot to have the state pony up the **nds to make this happen...I also feel that even if the atrium and other parts of this project end up scrapped in the long run...the arena upgrades need to happen if the building is going to be viable for the forseeable **ture.

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BJ But such an attitude likely won't be true for residents throughout Connecticut. There are plenty of people in the state who won't want to see their tax dollars spent on renovation of any sports facility, period. There are plenty of people who live in regions of the state other than Greater Hartford who won't want to see their tax dollars spent on renovating a facility that will largely benefit Hartford's specific economy.

In other words, "Peter" questions why state government should be committing tax dollars collected statewide to the improvement of "Paul's" business?

 

Well then I guess we should have a vote then, after all are we not a Democracy? But when it doesnt p*****, I will be one of those young professionals who leaves the state for Greener Pastures.

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Tonight is a great reason why UConn needs to be front and center with this. There are empty seats everywhere at tonight's game for the defending and 3-time National champions at XL. I willing to bet there were not more than 5 crowds in the 90s under 14,000. Now it's the norm. Can UConn really see itself playing in the XL 10 years from now in the state it's in? I can't believe they do.

 

There has to be more to do in town than just a game against Maine.

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Real question is what needs to come first to grow Hartford Jobs. How do you get the businesses and the people there to go to games after work. I'm all for the Whalers coming back - but last I knew (I now live in Manhattan and I'd be happy that people tell me otherwise) businesses were bolting Hartford. Its a partnership -you need entertainment to get businesses but whatever is in place just isn't working. The Civic Center is a dump. I went to two CT Whale games last year visiting home and am hard pressed for someone to tell me otherwise and how 1 concourse and those narrow hallways encourage people to want to come spend their money. Sadly I don't think you can get an NHL franchise to want to be enticed towards this facility even in a renovated state that promises not to tear down any walls. You need to preserve the next 100 years of Hartford - how do you get the state to commit to that simple - Uconn would easily pack 20,000 in this state. And for all the people who claim that CT is a basketball state and we should try to get an NBA franchise, Uconn is your NBA franchise. Most teams in the NBA would die to have the fan-base that the Huskies have, even if they were playing.

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Not sure why everyone is so hung up on this notion this will be **nded with taxpayer money? There is no doubt; there is no taxpayer money available for this endeavor. Did anyone happen to see our posts about the $13 Billion in net income earned last year from 5 of the largest corporations in the Hartford area? Corporate sponsorship is the key, that's how it happened in the 70's and that's what's needed now. No more whining about tax dollars, the big players in our market are flush with cash and Howard is working on getting the backing. Go Whale!

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As much as people doubt Baldwin, this is a man who convinced all the insurance companies in Hartford to own an NHL team and let him run it for them in the 80's. This is unheard of in sports and business today. Its very sad that they all wanted out and it had to be sold to Gordon.

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tiscipa165 wrote :

> Tonight is a great reason why UConn needs to be front and center with this.

> There are empty seats everywhere at tonight's game for the defending and

> 3-time National champions at XL. I willing to bet there were not more than

> 5 crowds in the 90s under 14,000. Now it's the norm. Can UConn really see

> itself playing in the XL 10 years from now in the state it's in? I can't

> believe they do.

>

> There has to be more to do in town than just a game against Maine.

 

I also noticed something else. Maybe this is the norm, and I just never noticed it before. The XL Center was at about 4000, 5 minutes before the game started. Then everyone showed up right before tip off. Then at about 8:30, everyone started to leave. There was about 8 minutes left in the game. When I left, after the game was over, there was no one there. We got out of the Hilton garage faster then after Whale games.

 

We got there around 5pm, and there wasn't the same amount of people, around the XL Center or at the Asylum Cafe, that are there for Whale games. It seems to me that the people who go see the Whale actually hang around Hartford, before and after games.

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http://articles.courant.com/2011-06-17/sports/hc-jacobs-bruins-column-0617-20110617_1_hockey-fans-brad-marchand-howard-baldwin/2

 

"I don't think in this day and age you can start from scratch. I don't think there's $400 million out there for a new arena. As an *****et of the city and state, we should be doing this anyway. UConn is huge in this."

 

Baldwin insists if the market economics are right he will have no problem lining up NHL ownership.

 

Dug up this article yesterday and It's very re*****uring to see HB so confident he can gather up an ownership group. Baldwin's quietly been working behind the scenes for years now, he's not going to dedicate what are supposed to be the best years of his life on this mission if he didn't believe he had a good enough chance to get it done. He's obviously cooking up something whether it be lining up a deep pocketed potential owner or getting the corporate community to understand they're making an investment in their city and get them to pony up.

 

Like I said, once UConn jumps on board with the plan and throws its weight around (which they will for $ sake) and people begin to realize they'll need to fix the XL Center anyways especially before it becomes $400 million fix people will begin to get behind the plan.

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FROM THE COURANT: "The defending national champs defeated Maine, 80-60, before 10,726 at the XL Center"

 

This right here should be a shining example that Baldwin is not the only one that counts tickets sold and/or distributed, alot of people said there was nobody at the game and if you read this it sounds like a damn good crowd for a game against Maine.

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