Whalevolution

If this very early trend continues......

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Springfield Falcons average attendance -- 4,158 (2games)

 

Hartford Wolf Pack average attendance -- 3,583 (3games)

 

575 more people attended Falcons or 14% more.

 

Will this early trend continue or will Hartford attendance pickup?

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Way too early and too many questions to be answered in both cities to make an informed prediction at this point. Going on pure speculation I don't see either team changing that much positively or negatively form last years average, as I don't see how either teams situation has changed.

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will5059 wrote:

"Way too early and too many questions to be answered in both cities to make an informed prediction at this point."

 

I'm not sure we'll see the average attendance in Hartford go much lower than it is, because it really can't go much lower.

 

This is purely a guess but, aside from any special or bobblehead giveaway-type nights, this is what I'm thinking you'll see averaging going forward:

 

Weeknight games: 1,200-1,500

 

Friday Games: 2,600-3,500

 

Sa****ay Games: 4,000-5,600

 

Sunday Games: 2,100-2,800

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Hartfordyouremyhome wrote:

 

> I'm not sure we'll see the average attendance in Hartford go much lower

> than it is, because it really can't go much lower.

>

> This is purely a guess but, aside from any special or bobblehead

> giveaway-type nights, this is what I'm thinking you'll see averaging going

> forward:

>

> Weeknight games: 1,200-1,500

>

> Friday Games: 2,600-3,500

>

> Sa****ay Games: 4,000-5,600

>

> Sunday Games: 2,100-2,800

I don't think your aiming to low with those estimates . Keep in mind however that although the actual turnout may be close to what you project it is likely that if the sales were regularly hovering below 2000 more tickets would then be distributed to schools and charity groups. This would pump up the numbers and maybe be a tax write off as a charitable donation? I'm not an accountant but I always figured that's how it worked . Anyways I doubt MSG or the new arena management will let the average dip below 3000 if they can help it. Still way early though. That being said I doubt the average reaches 5000 at any point.

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Actually this trend was out on hold by Howard Baldwin.. The wolfpack were losing fans and season ticket holders every season until the whale got here, and now te downward spiral started il again.. Bottom line is changing the name back to the pack was, yes a business decision, but a costly one, for Hartford..

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I think it is way too early to look at trends, my friend and I were discussing this topic this morning. A lot of people are just not ready for hockey or even know it has started. He was saying he was going to attend more games but was still in baseball mode with the Sox in the playoffs. Obviously that is no excuse for poor attendance, but I think we need a bigger sample size to make judgements on how the season will turn out and who is to blame.

 

It's easy for Whale fans and Packs fans to lob statistics back and forth, bottom line is that if either buisness model worked we would not be in the particular situation. I've attended both Pack and Whale games because my affliation is not based on the color of a jersey or the name, I am supporting hockey in Hartford. If people can't support the team that is put on the ice regardless of what the name is then the attendance will continue to drop and we will lose the team. I know people on this board are very p*****ionate about both sides, but at the end of the day I don't think enough casual hockey fans in CT care enough about minor league hockey in Hartford.

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KS1980 wrote:

> I think it is way too early to look at trends, my friend and I were

> discussing this topic this morning. A lot of people are just not ready for

> hockey or even know it has started. He was saying he was going to attend

> more games but was still in baseball mode with the Sox in the playoffs.

> Obviously that is no excuse for poor attendance, but I think we need a

> bigger sample size to make judgements on how the season will turn out and

> who is to blame.

>

> It's easy for Whale fans and Packs fans to lob statistics back and forth,

> bottom line is that if either buisness model worked we would not be in the

> particular situation. I've attended both Pack and Whale games because my

> affliation is not based on the color of a jersey or the name, I am

> supporting hockey in Hartford. If people can't support the team that is put

> on the ice regardless of what the name is then the attendance will continue

> to drop and we will lose the team. I know people on this board are very

> p*****ionate about both sides, but at the end of the day I don't think enough

> casual hockey fans in CT care enough about minor league hockey in Hartford.

 

I agree, But thats not solely a Hartford problem. Most minor league teams don't draw well because casual fans do not care about minor league sports. That being said I can't imagine a scenario in Hartford where a minor league team draws 8-10k because the demand just isn't there,no matter what the affiliation. I always say put a minor league team in place of any of the 30 current NHL markets regardless of size and see how well they draw... it wouldn't be good, and that is exactly what happened in Hartford they replaced steak with hamburger and people weren't/aren't impressed.

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PlainvilleWhale wrote:

> KS1980 wrote:

> > I think it is way too early to look at trends, my friend and I were

> > discussing this topic this morning. A lot of people are just not ready for

> > hockey or even know it has started. He was saying he was going to attend

> > more games but was still in baseball mode with the Sox in the playoffs.

> > Obviously that is no excuse for poor attendance, but I think we need a

> > bigger sample size to make judgements on how the season will turn out and

> > who is to blame.

> >

> > It's easy for Whale fans and Packs fans to lob statistics back and forth,

> > bottom line is that if either buisness model worked we would not be in the

> > particular situation. I've attended both Pack and Whale games because my

> > affliation is not based on the color of a jersey or the name, I am

> > supporting hockey in Hartford. If people can't support the team that is put

> > on the ice regardless of what the name is then the attendance will continue

> > to drop and we will lose the team. I know people on this board are very

> > p*****ionate about both sides, but at the end of the day I don't think enough

> > casual hockey fans in CT care enough about minor league hockey in Hartford.

>

> I agree, But thats not solely a Hartford problem. Most minor league teams don't draw

> well because casual fans do not care about minor league sports. That being said

> I can't imagine a scenario in Hartford where a minor league team draws 8-10k because

> the demand just isn't there,no matter what the affiliation. I always say put a minor

> league team in place of any of the 30 current NHL markets regardless of size and

> see how well they draw... it wouldn't be good, and that is exactly what happened

> in Hartford they replaced steak with hamburger and people weren't/aren't impressed.

 

Winnipeg.

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Biggie1083 wrote:

"Winnipeg."

 

Winnipeg is a Canadian city on the barren plains of Manitoba, with no other AHL or NHL teams around it, which also has a relatively new arena & a billionaire owner who wanted the NHL back there.

 

You're right. Winnipeg & Hartford are nearly identical.

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Winnipeg is in Canada , where hockey is the most popular sport to watch and play. Hartford is in the United States , where hockey is the 4th most popular pro sport at best. Winnipeg is in the middle of the prairies with no pro teams within 3 hours drive ( I'll be honest that's a rough guess) While from my house in CT I have 8 NHL or AHL teams within 2 hours and 30 minutes. Not a fair fight IMO.

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Hartfordyouremyhome wrote:

> Biggie1083 wrote:

> "Winnipeg."

>

> Winnipeg is a Canadian city on the barren plains of Manitoba, with no other AHL or

> NHL teams around it, which also has a relatively new arena & a billionaire owner

> who wanted the NHL back there.

>

> You're right. Winnipeg & Hartford are nearly identical.

 

will5059 wrote:

> Winnipeg is in Canada , where hockey is the most popular sport to watch and play.

> Hartford is in the United States , where hockey is the 4th most popular pro sport

> at best. Winnipeg is in the middle of the prairies with no pro teams within 3 hours

> drive ( I'll be honest that's a rough guess) While from my house in CT I have 8

> NHL or AHL teams within 2 hours and 30 minutes. Not a fair fight IMO.

 

Plainville wrote: "I always say put a minor league team in place of any of the 30 current NHL markets regardless of size and see how well they draw... it wouldn't be good." Winnipeg averaged between 7,000 and 8,600. They did it, but they're different than Hartford, so let's not compare the two. o.O

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Winnipeg was affiliated with Vancouver which was not their regional rival. The Rangers do not want the NHL in Hartford. They want to create Ranger fans in Connecticut. The best thing for everyone to do right now is boycott the Wolf Pack and get the Rangers the **** outta here. Anything else and you're waisting your time.

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The rangers are probably one of the 3 or 4 most popular nhl teams in the state of ct. On top of that fact id be willing to bet you the average person on the street has no idea who the wolf pack are affiliated with not do they have a strong opinion on the rangers one way or another. I highly doubt if this team was affiliated with the flames , or blue jackets or he flyers that the average attendance would jump to 8 or 9 thousand a game. What is slowly killing this franchise is the same thing that slowly killed the whalers: a lack of hockey fans in the state. Sad but true.

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That's idiotic Will. Everyone knows this is the Rangers team. They have it on the uniforms, and in the small amount of people that go to games at least half of them wear Rangers jerseys. What we need is the Rangers out. Until they leave Hartford will be a failing hockey market and there is no chance that will change until the Rangers are GONE.

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First off, I'm not an idiot. I'm still willing to bet most people don't know/ care who the wolf pack is affiliated with. I come to this conclusion a couple of ways. First and foremost is the fact that most people aren't hockey fans . Therefore most people don't follow the NHL on a day to day basis. If the avid hockey fan group is in the minority of the general population and the nhl fan base can also be described as a niche market (a p*****ionate one, but far and away the smallest o the pro sport crowds) then why is it idiotic to *****ume that your average joe and your average soccer mom don't know/ care who the wolf pack are hitched too? Even if I'm wrong about that it doesn't change the fact that the rangers are one of the most popular teams in the state. Just about any team you bring in will have a smaller built in fanbase. Those are the realities I've concluded after living and following hockey in this state for 30 years.

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Biggie1083 wrote:

> Hartfordyouremyhome wrote:

> > Biggie1083 wrote:

> > Winnipeg is a Canadian city on the barren plains of Manitoba, with no other AHL or

> > NHL teams around it, which also has a relatively new arena & a billionaire owner

> > who wanted the NHL back there. You're right. Winnipeg & Hartford are nearly identical.

> will5059 wrote:

> > Winnipeg is in Canada , where hockey is the most popular sport to watch and play.

> > Hartford is in the United States , where hockey is the 4th most popular pro sport

> > at best. Winnipeg is in the middle of the prairies with no pro teams within 3 hours

> > drive ( I'll be honest that's a rough guess) While from my house in CT I have 8

> > NHL or AHL teams within 2 hours and 30 minutes. Not a fair fight IMO.

> Plainville wrote: "I always say put a minor league team in place of any of the

> 30 current NHL markets regardless of size and see how well they draw... it wouldn't

> be good." Winnipeg averaged between 7,000 and 8,600. They did it, but they're

> different than Hartford, so let's not compare the two. o.O

 

Winnipeg's comparable by market size right? Hartford being bigger I think.

 

I always thought Hamilton was a good comparison to Hartford. Yes they are in Canada so the fandom of Hockey is stronger there but it's sandwiched between Buffalo and Toronto. Not Boston and Ny but two large cities with NHL teams none the less. Would there be rivalries amoung fans if Buffalo moved in or Toronto moved in?

 

Don't you just wish you could move the Rangers to let's say Hamiton and then stick the Flyer Phantoms in Manhattan and watch the team draw flies. An extreme example I know but it sure would get many Ranger fans saying; you know what this is not really **n, not really what we want.

 

I think that's the point that Whaler fans are making that Ranger fans don't understand. Each group has to put on eachothers shoes.

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will5059 wrote:

> First off, I'm not an idiot. I'm still willing to bet most people don't

> know/ care who the wolf pack is affiliated with. I come to this conclusion

> a couple of ways. First and foremost is the fact that most people aren't

> hockey fans . Therefore most people don't follow the NHL on a day to day

> basis. If the avid hockey fan group is in the minority of the general

> population and the nhl fan base can also be described as a niche market (a

> p*****ionate one, but far and away the smallest o the pro sport crowds) then

> why is it idiotic to *****ume that your average joe and your average soccer

> mom don't know/ care who the wolf pack are hitched too? Even if I'm wrong

> about that it doesn't change the fact that the rangers are one of the most

> popular teams in the state. Just about any team you bring in will have a

> smaller built in fanbase. Those are the realities I've concluded after

> living and following hockey in this state for 30 years.

 

I agree ask the sell out crowds inNew Britain who are the Rock Cats affiliated with?

At least 3/5 probably won't know or care. Their there to take kids to

Game or just for a reasonable night out watching a game. No labels to

Them

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For every Winnipeg i'll counter it with Quebec, Lost its NHL team gained in AHL team in the old NHL building and drew flies, But would one say it's a bad market? haha NO. And I don't consider Winnipeg drawing 7k impressive at all.... thats only 2k more than here with a brand new building a neutral affiliation, and not to mention that there is only one sport in Manitoba that means anything and that's hockey. In New England it competes with all 3 of the major sports.

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Also to say there are no hockey fan's in the state is insane. CT is **ll of fan's who would hop on board an NHL team in seconds. These days teams have so many advertising outlets that no one in CT could go a day without seeing the Whaler logo if returned. That's a promise. This isn't 1990 where you only get your advertising in a newspaper or on tv, this is the digital age. Most fan bases are built on hype these day anyway's and knowing that there is a real deal sports team in your backyard will draw in the numbers. So don't go complaining because of your perceived lack of hockey fan's in the state just because 30 years ago that was what you thought. This is 2013 this market is starved for something to call their own.

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PlainvilleWhale wrote:

> Also to say there are no hockey fan's in the state is insane. CT is **ll of

> fan's who would hop on board an NHL team in seconds. These days teams have

> so many advertising outlets that no one in CT could go a day without seeing

> the Whaler logo if returned. That's a promise. This isn't 1990 where you

> only get your advertising in a newspaper or on tv, this is the digital age.

> Most fan bases are built on hype these day anyway's and knowing that there

> is a real deal sports team in your backyard will draw in the numbers. So

> don't go complaining because of your perceived lack of hockey fan's in the

> state just because 30 years ago that was what you thought. This is 2013

> this market is starved for something to call their own.

 

Plainvillewhale , let me be clear that I never said there were "no" hockey fans in the state of Connecticut . I said there was strong core a p*****ionate die hards but at this point it looks as though there are not enough casual fans to fill a building. NHL or ahl . Witch is the way it's been in this state for 20 years . There are many ducks to be put in a row before the state of ct enters the discussion for the nhl. I've explained my position. I'm not insane. I love hockey but we are not nhl ready as of right now . I'm sorry. Hope**lly things change. I went to whaler games in the 90's regularly. I've been going to ahl games since the whalers moved. I'm not "complaining " about the lack of hockey fans , as you put it. Work on your reading comprehension my friend before you call me insane. We both want the same thing.

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Oh, I almost forgot. Thanks a ton plainvillewhale for cluing me into the fact that we live in the "digital age " now and newspapers and television aren't the only sources of advertising revenue these days. Digital age....... Does that have anything to do with those computer phone doo-hickies I see all the kids playing with these days? News travels slow to the rock I live under. Not quite sure how the onset of the digital age pertained to my observation of the number of hockey fans but whatever. Hope incorporation the word "digital" into your post made you feel smart.

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You were comparing the lack of "casual fans" in the 90's and are presuming there are none now based on what you see at minor league games. If you read my post correctly i stated that you will not see the abundance of casual fans when A. The Whalers or any team for that matter are losing or mismanaged (the 90's) B. At any minor league game, because that's not the "place to be." Was the Civic Center packed when the Whalers were winning? Did they outdraw the Bruins in the 80's? We both know the answer and the reason why. Also if now is not the time to push for the NHL when is? When the fans get sick of minor league hockey? I'd say they are. How about when the XL is past it's prime? Oh wait. How about when Hartford needs an economical boost? Oh wait?? Perhaps when the Whaler brand is selling? Oh i forgot, it is! The time is now, The XL needs to go, it needs to be replaced, Getting the NHL even with a new arena is likely a 10-20 year battle. Why not start the groundwork now? Call me a radical but If any of you want to see the Whale return and the city back to it's **ll potential in your lifetime the time is now.

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PlainvilleWhale wrote:

> You were comparing the lack of "casual fans" in the 90's and are

> presuming there are none now based on what you see at minor league games.

> If you read my post correctly i stated that you will not see the abundance

> of casual fans when A. The Whalers or any team for that matter are losing

> or mismanaged (the 90's) B. At any minor league game, because that's

Your entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts. A quick search on hockeydb shows that from the years 79-80 through 88-89 the bruins outdrew the whalers 6 out of 10 years. A couple of those years the whalers were in the bottom 3 of the league attendance wise. At least 1 sub 10000 occurred during a year they made the playoffs. Their two best seasons on the ice failed to produce an yearly average over 15000. You also can't site made up facts about the joint being "packed " in the 80's (witch it wasn't ) to support your argument while on the same hand dismissing the lean years of the 90's and their relevance to potential fan support today. It wasn't just in years that they finished in either. Case in point a half empty building for a playoff game in 93 . ( maybe 92) Look I believe our core group of fans was one of the loudest and most loyal in the league and that building rocked when **ll. Problem is there just wasn't enough and the building didn't fill up enough. Fix those problem and it'll work .

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